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	<title>Comments on: Why I hate the West Wing</title>
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	<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/02/why-i-hate-the-west-wing/</link>
	<description>News and analysis for Scotland&#039;s progressive movement</description>
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		<title>By: Peter McColl</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/02/why-i-hate-the-west-wing/comment-page-1/#comment-8568</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter McColl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=363#comment-8568</guid>
		<description>Hi Nicola,

Thanks for your comments. I think the problem is not actually with the West Wing itself. It&#039;s with the way people in politics empathise with the characters and try to emulate them. You&#039;re right that a critical understanding of the West Wing doesn&#039;t lead to triangulation, quite the reverse. 

But you only need to spend a short period around most triangulators in politics to discover that the West Wing is at the heart of their approach. It&#039;s referred to as justification for triangulation like religious fundamentalists use sacred texts. 

So the slightly hyperbolic headline hides my agreement with you!

Peter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Nicola,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments. I think the problem is not actually with the West Wing itself. It&#8217;s with the way people in politics empathise with the characters and try to emulate them. You&#8217;re right that a critical understanding of the West Wing doesn&#8217;t lead to triangulation, quite the reverse. </p>
<p>But you only need to spend a short period around most triangulators in politics to discover that the West Wing is at the heart of their approach. It&#8217;s referred to as justification for triangulation like religious fundamentalists use sacred texts. </p>
<p>So the slightly hyperbolic headline hides my agreement with you!</p>
<p>Peter</p>
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		<title>By: Nicola Prigg</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/02/why-i-hate-the-west-wing/comment-page-1/#comment-8567</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicola Prigg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 11:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=363#comment-8567</guid>
		<description>Can I add, the only reason why Josh joined the Bartlet campaign was because he was genuine. He didn&#039;t try and pander to voters.

Toby told Bartlet in a town hall event at the start of the campaign to tell the truth if he was asked about the farmer&#039;s bill that cost his constituents against the advice of the advisers that were telling him to pander to the farmers and triangulate. 
They were quickly fired in the episode.

Sam Seaborn came on to the campaign because Josh came to him and told him that &quot;Bartlet was the real thing&quot;. Josh had been working on the Hoynes campaign for the nomination and was trying to triangulate to get Hoynes the nomination and then the presidency.

Hoynes was the Clinton/Blair/Brown/Cameron of the Democratic primary and he didn&#039;t win.

The guys did triangulate but they ended up getting burned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can I add, the only reason why Josh joined the Bartlet campaign was because he was genuine. He didn&#8217;t try and pander to voters.</p>
<p>Toby told Bartlet in a town hall event at the start of the campaign to tell the truth if he was asked about the farmer&#8217;s bill that cost his constituents against the advice of the advisers that were telling him to pander to the farmers and triangulate.<br />
They were quickly fired in the episode.</p>
<p>Sam Seaborn came on to the campaign because Josh came to him and told him that &#8220;Bartlet was the real thing&#8221;. Josh had been working on the Hoynes campaign for the nomination and was trying to triangulate to get Hoynes the nomination and then the presidency.</p>
<p>Hoynes was the Clinton/Blair/Brown/Cameron of the Democratic primary and he didn&#8217;t win.</p>
<p>The guys did triangulate but they ended up getting burned.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicola Prigg</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/02/why-i-hate-the-west-wing/comment-page-1/#comment-8566</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicola Prigg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=363#comment-8566</guid>
		<description>As other commenters have said the guys in the WW do better when they &quot;Let Bartlet be Bartlet&quot;

As for blaming the West Wing for triangulation, thats not really true. Clinton won in 96 and Blair won in 97. The first series of the WW started in 99. 

If anything the West Wing shows why not to triangulate.

In the Californian election in series 4 where the candidate died, the Democrat campaign became about ideas rather than people and policies. They ended up winning in a Republican stronghold. Doesn&#039;t that show exactly the opposite of what you are trying to say here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As other commenters have said the guys in the WW do better when they &#8220;Let Bartlet be Bartlet&#8221;</p>
<p>As for blaming the West Wing for triangulation, thats not really true. Clinton won in 96 and Blair won in 97. The first series of the WW started in 99. </p>
<p>If anything the West Wing shows why not to triangulate.</p>
<p>In the Californian election in series 4 where the candidate died, the Democrat campaign became about ideas rather than people and policies. They ended up winning in a Republican stronghold. Doesn&#8217;t that show exactly the opposite of what you are trying to say here.</p>
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		<title>By: Memo: this isn&#8217;t the Wing Wing &#124; Bright Green</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/02/why-i-hate-the-west-wing/comment-page-1/#comment-4638</link>
		<dc:creator>Memo: this isn&#8217;t the Wing Wing &#124; Bright Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2011 05:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=363#comment-4638</guid>
		<description>[...] names, but there are lots of them. Peter McColl has written very eloquently here before about why he hates the West Wing. I don&#8217;t hate the West Wing. I love it. I have watched every episode. Twice. But it is the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] names, but there are lots of them. Peter McColl has written very eloquently here before about why he hates the West Wing. I don&#8217;t hate the West Wing. I love it. I have watched every episode. Twice. But it is the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JJ</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/02/why-i-hate-the-west-wing/comment-page-1/#comment-1263</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Sep 2010 04:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=363#comment-1263</guid>
		<description>But beyond the arguments made above, The West Wing is not styled to show a &quot;true&quot; depiction of politics in America.  The show is more about the day to day struggles of individual public servants (how working in government affects them, their private lives etc etc) while utilizing larger, more universal truths.  It&#039;s television and although Bartlet was a north-eastern intellectual liberal, not alienating the many conservative viewers was surely a high priority for the network.  In fact, in the second episode we see pissed off, ready to go to war Bartlet.  (obviously deliberate).  Not liking The West Wing because Bartlet is not a revolutionary or because he always seems to &quot;triangulate&quot; as you say, is just proof that viewers, especially in Europe, have taken this show WAY too seriously.  They are characters with scripts working within the parameters of what has actually taken place in America.  TV needs to reach a mass market, and the brilliance of The West Wing was being able to do that with important subject matter that the viewers could relate to.  Sounds to me like you should hate your politicians for being influenced by a TV show...not the other way around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But beyond the arguments made above, The West Wing is not styled to show a &#8220;true&#8221; depiction of politics in America.  The show is more about the day to day struggles of individual public servants (how working in government affects them, their private lives etc etc) while utilizing larger, more universal truths.  It&#8217;s television and although Bartlet was a north-eastern intellectual liberal, not alienating the many conservative viewers was surely a high priority for the network.  In fact, in the second episode we see pissed off, ready to go to war Bartlet.  (obviously deliberate).  Not liking The West Wing because Bartlet is not a revolutionary or because he always seems to &#8220;triangulate&#8221; as you say, is just proof that viewers, especially in Europe, have taken this show WAY too seriously.  They are characters with scripts working within the parameters of what has actually taken place in America.  TV needs to reach a mass market, and the brilliance of The West Wing was being able to do that with important subject matter that the viewers could relate to.  Sounds to me like you should hate your politicians for being influenced by a TV show&#8230;not the other way around.</p>
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		<title>By: Claire</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/02/why-i-hate-the-west-wing/comment-page-1/#comment-111</link>
		<dc:creator>Claire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:41:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=363#comment-111</guid>
		<description>Wow! Intelligent and well-thought-out.  Just wondering though, although as a die-hard fan I like to kid myself into thinking that the West Wing is a Global Force for Good... do you think maybe triangulation thinking that was current influenced the West Wing writing/politics, rather than necessarily the other way round? Clinton and Blair were both around before 1999, after all...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow! Intelligent and well-thought-out.  Just wondering though, although as a die-hard fan I like to kid myself into thinking that the West Wing is a Global Force for Good&#8230; do you think maybe triangulation thinking that was current influenced the West Wing writing/politics, rather than necessarily the other way round? Clinton and Blair were both around before 1999, after all&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Tyrer</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/02/why-i-hate-the-west-wing/comment-page-1/#comment-106</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Tyrer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=363#comment-106</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t watch The West Wing, but what you say about triangulation makes perfect sense to me and its screamingly obvious that this is why voting turnouts are so pathetically low come election time, and even worse, why so many who do vote base their decisions on nothing more than the leader&#039;s personality and celebrity status.  

I&#039;ve only recently taken a more proactive interest in politics. Perhaps due to the nature of my job, or maybe its just because I increasingly recognise its significance to my life - Who knows. 

So, what do I do first - I take steps to learn more about our political parties and understand what their values and politics are so I can decide where to set my stall.  Who I believe in and want to support and follow. 

It was bloody difficult to do this when everyone is sitting on the fence and saying alot about nothing!

Unless the public can strongly identify with a party&#039;s values and align these with their own beliefs and concerns, then why bother taking that trip down to the poll station to vote. 

There&#039;s no motivation. 
There&#039;s no feeling of loyalty or connection to a party. 
There&#039;s no point if everyone is saying they&#039;ll do the same thing anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t watch The West Wing, but what you say about triangulation makes perfect sense to me and its screamingly obvious that this is why voting turnouts are so pathetically low come election time, and even worse, why so many who do vote base their decisions on nothing more than the leader&#8217;s personality and celebrity status.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve only recently taken a more proactive interest in politics. Perhaps due to the nature of my job, or maybe its just because I increasingly recognise its significance to my life &#8211; Who knows. </p>
<p>So, what do I do first &#8211; I take steps to learn more about our political parties and understand what their values and politics are so I can decide where to set my stall.  Who I believe in and want to support and follow. </p>
<p>It was bloody difficult to do this when everyone is sitting on the fence and saying alot about nothing!</p>
<p>Unless the public can strongly identify with a party&#8217;s values and align these with their own beliefs and concerns, then why bother taking that trip down to the poll station to vote. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s no motivation.<br />
There&#8217;s no feeling of loyalty or connection to a party.<br />
There&#8217;s no point if everyone is saying they&#8217;ll do the same thing anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: C'llr. Rupert Read</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/02/why-i-hate-the-west-wing/comment-page-1/#comment-103</link>
		<dc:creator>C'llr. Rupert Read</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=363#comment-103</guid>
		<description>I agree with Adam.
I have, incidentally, gotten a GREAT and genuinely-progressive idea from the West Wing, and put it into practice. It was the CLEAN CAMPAIGN PLEDGE - and that one, I even got from the Republicans (on the programme)!  ;-)
This Pledge helped clean up the Norwich North byelection, and seems now to be exerting a bigger positive effect on British politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Adam.<br />
I have, incidentally, gotten a GREAT and genuinely-progressive idea from the West Wing, and put it into practice. It was the CLEAN CAMPAIGN PLEDGE &#8211; and that one, I even got from the Republicans (on the programme)!  <img src='http://brightgreenscotland.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
This Pledge helped clean up the Norwich North byelection, and seems now to be exerting a bigger positive effect on British politics.</p>
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		<title>By: CDF</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/02/why-i-hate-the-west-wing/comment-page-1/#comment-100</link>
		<dc:creator>CDF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=363#comment-100</guid>
		<description>Stuart, the funny thing is that Britain has had coalition governments before: during both World Wars, for instance.  The nation didn&#039;t explode because Lloyd George headed a government that contained both Liberals and Conservatives.  We were probably led more effectively because Churchill had Clement Attlee and Ernest Bevin by his side.  Coalitions are not a problem, unless absolute power means more to you than the good of the country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart, the funny thing is that Britain has had coalition governments before: during both World Wars, for instance.  The nation didn&#8217;t explode because Lloyd George headed a government that contained both Liberals and Conservatives.  We were probably led more effectively because Churchill had Clement Attlee and Ernest Bevin by his side.  Coalitions are not a problem, unless absolute power means more to you than the good of the country.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Clay</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/02/why-i-hate-the-west-wing/comment-page-1/#comment-99</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Clay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=363#comment-99</guid>
		<description>I agree with what&#039;s already been said here, but to me the world of politics has got to a stage where everyone is just terrified of upsetting a certain sub section of society because it might just mean they lose the election. Tories and Labour only see winning and winning out right as the goal- they just can&#039;t comprehend the idea of coalitions or minority governments (and you wonder which parliament is the immature one...) The middle is cosy, warm, and nice in some ways but it must lead to a heck of a lot of paranoia and self loathing in politicians. 

This is a major argument I bring up when it comes to debating proportional representation. Let&#039;s embrace it and all just CHILL THE **** OUT!

Tories- you love the free market, so why not just say so?
Labour- you want centralised regulation of markets and believe in Social Justice. Say it and Do it.
Lib Dems- just be whatever it is you are!
(I&#039;ve not bothered with the Greens here as, well, they tend to say what they mean anyway)

Do you see? Now we can have a proper debate about what matters, and no one has to worry about upsetting members of the public who wouldn&#039;t naturally vote for them in the first place, in fact, you might even win over some people who didn&#039;t actually realise what you stood for because of your constant middle ground cosiness!!

Could we resurrect Roy Jenkins (probably the last MP to have any balls- sticking to what he believed in no matter what) please?! Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with what&#8217;s already been said here, but to me the world of politics has got to a stage where everyone is just terrified of upsetting a certain sub section of society because it might just mean they lose the election. Tories and Labour only see winning and winning out right as the goal- they just can&#8217;t comprehend the idea of coalitions or minority governments (and you wonder which parliament is the immature one&#8230;) The middle is cosy, warm, and nice in some ways but it must lead to a heck of a lot of paranoia and self loathing in politicians. </p>
<p>This is a major argument I bring up when it comes to debating proportional representation. Let&#8217;s embrace it and all just CHILL THE **** OUT!</p>
<p>Tories- you love the free market, so why not just say so?<br />
Labour- you want centralised regulation of markets and believe in Social Justice. Say it and Do it.<br />
Lib Dems- just be whatever it is you are!<br />
(I&#8217;ve not bothered with the Greens here as, well, they tend to say what they mean anyway)</p>
<p>Do you see? Now we can have a proper debate about what matters, and no one has to worry about upsetting members of the public who wouldn&#8217;t naturally vote for them in the first place, in fact, you might even win over some people who didn&#8217;t actually realise what you stood for because of your constant middle ground cosiness!!</p>
<p>Could we resurrect Roy Jenkins (probably the last MP to have any balls- sticking to what he believed in no matter what) please?! Thank you.</p>
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