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	<title>Comments on: ConDemed? The fightback begins</title>
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	<description>News and analysis for Scotland&#039;s progressive movement</description>
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		<title>By: ConDemed? The fightback begins &#124; GreenFeed (beta2)</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/05/condemed-the-fightback-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-1168</link>
		<dc:creator>ConDemed? The fightback begins &#124; GreenFeed (beta2)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:31:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=572#comment-1168</guid>
		<description>[...] Cross-posted at Bright Green Scotland [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Cross-posted at Bright Green Scotland [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Scotland considers the beginning of Liberal Conservatism &#8211; Scottish Roundup</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/05/condemed-the-fightback-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-460</link>
		<dc:creator>Scotland considers the beginning of Liberal Conservatism &#8211; Scottish Roundup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 May 2010 20:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=572#comment-460</guid>
		<description>[...] of the border. Hythlodaeus took a comprehensive look at what the Lib Dems got out of the deal while Bright Green Scotland gets a little confused between &#8216;progressiveness&#8217; and fighting cuts but seems well and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of the border. Hythlodaeus took a comprehensive look at what the Lib Dems got out of the deal while Bright Green Scotland gets a little confused between &#8216;progressiveness&#8217; and fighting cuts but seems well and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ellie</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/05/condemed-the-fightback-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-435</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 15:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=572#comment-435</guid>
		<description>The public debate just got a lot more interesting. The difficulty with challenging labour was - as Aled very rightly points out - the inconsistency between their actions and their rhetoric. They spoke of social democracy while pushing broadly neo-liberal policies. 

We now have possible the most &quot;liberal&quot; government in Britain&#039;s history (prob hyperbole, feel free to pull me up). Thatcher was socially illiberal and economically an idealogue. New labour was a funny mix of neo-liberal and old-school interventionist. Now we have the orange-book part of the LibDems, along with the moderate and liberal part of the Tories. Proper liberals.

We therefore need to adopt a different approach from before. Under Thatcher, we fought back hard against her brutal ideology. With Blair/Brown, we exposed lies and hypocrisy. Under the liberals, we have an intellectual debate to win. We have to show where, and how, their policies are wrong. In particular, where they are inefficient and undervalue human and environmental capital. And because these people believe in the economy, we also must engage them on economic terms. 

The old tools are still useful, but they are significantly blunter than they were before. We need to sharpen them, and get new ones. The greens play a very important role. But we need far more than a &quot;protest movement&quot;. We need to use this time of ideological clarity to win a massive, public debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The public debate just got a lot more interesting. The difficulty with challenging labour was &#8211; as Aled very rightly points out &#8211; the inconsistency between their actions and their rhetoric. They spoke of social democracy while pushing broadly neo-liberal policies. </p>
<p>We now have possible the most &#8220;liberal&#8221; government in Britain&#8217;s history (prob hyperbole, feel free to pull me up). Thatcher was socially illiberal and economically an idealogue. New labour was a funny mix of neo-liberal and old-school interventionist. Now we have the orange-book part of the LibDems, along with the moderate and liberal part of the Tories. Proper liberals.</p>
<p>We therefore need to adopt a different approach from before. Under Thatcher, we fought back hard against her brutal ideology. With Blair/Brown, we exposed lies and hypocrisy. Under the liberals, we have an intellectual debate to win. We have to show where, and how, their policies are wrong. In particular, where they are inefficient and undervalue human and environmental capital. And because these people believe in the economy, we also must engage them on economic terms. </p>
<p>The old tools are still useful, but they are significantly blunter than they were before. We need to sharpen them, and get new ones. The greens play a very important role. But we need far more than a &#8220;protest movement&#8221;. We need to use this time of ideological clarity to win a massive, public debate.</p>
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		<title>By: Aled-Dilwyn Fisher</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/05/condemed-the-fightback-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-434</link>
		<dc:creator>Aled-Dilwyn Fisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 08:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=572#comment-434</guid>
		<description>Blanco,

Perhaps I wasn&#039;t clear enough - Labour were right to chuck in the towel yesterday when they did. But I agree that we shouldn&#039;t revel in opposition. 

The only reason it was right is perhaps Labour themselves ruled out any kind of deal with nationalists or others, other than the Liberals. That would not have been a progressive coalition, and would have failed quickly, giving the Tories an even bigger win in a quick election. 

So they were right to go into opposition now rather than fluff a coalition with the Liberals that would not have been &#039;progressive&#039; at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blanco,</p>
<p>Perhaps I wasn&#8217;t clear enough &#8211; Labour were right to chuck in the towel yesterday when they did. But I agree that we shouldn&#8217;t revel in opposition. </p>
<p>The only reason it was right is perhaps Labour themselves ruled out any kind of deal with nationalists or others, other than the Liberals. That would not have been a progressive coalition, and would have failed quickly, giving the Tories an even bigger win in a quick election. </p>
<p>So they were right to go into opposition now rather than fluff a coalition with the Liberals that would not have been &#8216;progressive&#8217; at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Ramsay</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/05/condemed-the-fightback-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-432</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Ramsay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 23:21:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=572#comment-432</guid>
		<description>Blanco - yes, I agree we need a positive agenda for investment to build a fairer economy. But that doesn&#039;t mean that we shouldn&#039;t be honest about how much we need to fight these cuts. It is not being overly negative to talk about the impacts of the proposed cuts - just honest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blanco &#8211; yes, I agree we need a positive agenda for investment to build a fairer economy. But that doesn&#8217;t mean that we shouldn&#8217;t be honest about how much we need to fight these cuts. It is not being overly negative to talk about the impacts of the proposed cuts &#8211; just honest.</p>
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		<title>By: blanco</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/05/condemed-the-fightback-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-431</link>
		<dc:creator>blanco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 22:28:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=572#comment-431</guid>
		<description>Gary,

My concern is that everyone outside of the government will now focus purely on defining themselves in opposition to what the government is, rather than standing for something in particular. The Greens will be better than Labour at this - Labour is now purely a vehicle for power, their deliberate sabotage of the chances for a progressive coalition today proves that. 

But I do find it toxic how so many of us on the left revel in opposition, as if more can be achieved without power than with it - as if, indeed, the point of progressive politics is purely to criticise the bad guys, rather than actually being the good guys (and winning).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gary,</p>
<p>My concern is that everyone outside of the government will now focus purely on defining themselves in opposition to what the government is, rather than standing for something in particular. The Greens will be better than Labour at this &#8211; Labour is now purely a vehicle for power, their deliberate sabotage of the chances for a progressive coalition today proves that. </p>
<p>But I do find it toxic how so many of us on the left revel in opposition, as if more can be achieved without power than with it &#8211; as if, indeed, the point of progressive politics is purely to criticise the bad guys, rather than actually being the good guys (and winning).</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Dunion</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/05/condemed-the-fightback-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-430</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Dunion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 19:41:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=572#comment-430</guid>
		<description>Blanco, I realise the online medium encourages hyperbole, but I&#039;m afraid &quot;The blood from the cuts will be on [Aled&#039;s] hands,&quot; is a soundbite too far.

Aled here is not talking about what ought to have happened or not over the past week. He is talking about how best to deal with the realities of our immediate future.

During the knife-edge diplomacy of the recent interregnum, I took the view that parties on the left should put aside their differences for as long as it took to avert a Tory government, and to express them constructively thereafter.

Now Prime Minister Cameron is a reality I share Aled&#039;s view that more radical voices than the Labour Party leadership must come to the fore if Britain is to resist, rather than adapt to, the forces of Conservatism.

We try to keep this blog pluralist and engaging, rather than a vein-popping rantfest. I&#039;d love you to join that conversation in that spirit, if you&#039;re willing to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blanco, I realise the online medium encourages hyperbole, but I&#8217;m afraid &#8220;The blood from the cuts will be on [Aled's] hands,&#8221; is a soundbite too far.</p>
<p>Aled here is not talking about what ought to have happened or not over the past week. He is talking about how best to deal with the realities of our immediate future.</p>
<p>During the knife-edge diplomacy of the recent interregnum, I took the view that parties on the left should put aside their differences for as long as it took to avert a Tory government, and to express them constructively thereafter.</p>
<p>Now Prime Minister Cameron is a reality I share Aled&#8217;s view that more radical voices than the Labour Party leadership must come to the fore if Britain is to resist, rather than adapt to, the forces of Conservatism.</p>
<p>We try to keep this blog pluralist and engaging, rather than a vein-popping rantfest. I&#8217;d love you to join that conversation in that spirit, if you&#8217;re willing to.</p>
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		<title>By: blanco</title>
		<link>http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2010/05/condemed-the-fightback-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-428</link>
		<dc:creator>blanco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 19:07:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brightgreenscotland.org/?p=572#comment-428</guid>
		<description>So you are happy about the Tories getting back into office, because it gives you a reason to &quot;fight&quot;?

&quot;they would have been crazy to do anything else&quot;

You mean, they would have been crazy to stop the Tories getting back in?

People like you, and Labour tribalists, destroyed any chance of an alternative to Tory government. I quote Gary Dunion:

&quot;This mess is tremendous fun but what I&#039;m not loving are the tribalists in both Labour and the Greens intent on putting party before country.&quot;

and (substitute the word Labour for Green Party):

&quot;Labour: remember saying Tories will throw millions out of work? You were right. So giving up now for &quot;party renewal&quot; would be desertion.&quot;

The blood from the cuts will be on your hands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you are happy about the Tories getting back into office, because it gives you a reason to &#8220;fight&#8221;?</p>
<p>&#8220;they would have been crazy to do anything else&#8221;</p>
<p>You mean, they would have been crazy to stop the Tories getting back in?</p>
<p>People like you, and Labour tribalists, destroyed any chance of an alternative to Tory government. I quote Gary Dunion:</p>
<p>&#8220;This mess is tremendous fun but what I&#8217;m not loving are the tribalists in both Labour and the Greens intent on putting party before country.&#8221;</p>
<p>and (substitute the word Labour for Green Party):</p>
<p>&#8220;Labour: remember saying Tories will throw millions out of work? You were right. So giving up now for &#8220;party renewal&#8221; would be desertion.&#8221;</p>
<p>The blood from the cuts will be on your hands.</p>
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